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you are up—to—date with the headlines. now on bbc news, stephen sackur is in florida with hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. this year marks the 50th anniversary of one of the most remarkable feats of exploration in the history of humankind. the apollo 11 mission which landed man on the moon. i'm in florida to meet one of the crewmembers. while neil armstrong and buzz aldrin were setting foot on the moon ‘s surface, michael collins was polishing the command module which got them all home. 50 years on, how does he reflect on the significant of that extraordinary mission? michael

collins, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much. this year marks the 50th anniversary of the historic apollo 11 mission which you were a key pa rt apollo 11 mission which you were a key part of. it means the spotlight is back on that mission and back on you. how do you feel about that? there were three of us on that flight. neil there were three of us on that flight. neil armstrong, buzz there were three of us on that flight. neilarmstrong, buzz aldrin and i. three very lucky people. neil armstrong was born in 1930. buzz aldrin in 1930 me in 1930. three quite different people. neil armstrong did not like spotlight. buzz aldrin does like the spotlight. mike collins does not like it, with all due respect, sir. mike collins does not like spotlight either. and

yet here we are and we will talk about what happened in 1969. do you talk about it with an enduring sense of pride? very much so. i was very proud of thejob of pride? very much so. i was very proud of the job that the three of us proud of the job that the three of us did getting us to and from the moon. it is a long and fragile daisychain and the links are very fragile and we were able to keep them intact and do ourjob properly. more than the three of us, there we re more than the three of us, there were almost 400,000 americans working on project apollo and i think, i thank them. they're the ones who don't get recognised.” ones who don't get recognisedlj wa nt ones who don't get recognised.” wa nt to ta ke ones who don't get recognised.” want to take you back quite some time before the mission, before those amazing pictures of the footsteps those amazing pictures of the footste ps o n those amazing pictures of the footsteps on the moon. i want to ta ke footsteps on the moon. i want to take you back tojohn f. kennedy pledging to invest whatever it took

to get american men onto the moon in 19 61,i to get american men onto the moon in 19 61, i guess. and within the decade, he said, we will make it happen. absolutely. did you, at the time when he said that, did you think that that was me. i will do whatever i can to be part of that? no, idid whatever i can to be part of that? no, i did not. whenjohn f. kennedy made that famous speech, a man on the moon by the end of the decade, i was struggling with equations of motion in test pilot school at the air force base and the notion of flying to the moon was far beyond my office. 0nce flying to the moon was far beyond my office. once i did join the space programme and become part of apollo, as the months went by i thinkjohn f. kennedy more and more because the

stark simplicity of his mandate was wonderfulfor stark simplicity of his mandate was wonderful for us. stark simplicity of his mandate was wonderfulfor us. we could quote john kennedy and we could get things done. we could accelerate people. we could tell people we need to have this by the day after tomorrow and the kennedy mandate, the simplicity of it, the stark beauty of it, really helped us along to that moment. did you feel you were part of some sort of cold war contest? we should not forget that kennedy's commitment was in part driven by a preoccupation with what the soviets we re preoccupation with what the soviets were doing in the sense that the soviets may be getting ahead of americans in the space race. the americans we re in the space race. the americans were determined to fight back. did you feel like a cold war warrior?‘ little bit. we were acutely aware of the ussr. we knew we were in a competition with them. but somehow that was behind a screen. not part

of our day—to—day life and i did not feel like an active competitor. my problems were american problems trying to get american problem solved. and although we knew we were in this competition my conscience nurse at lease was 99% taken with non— soviet affairs or status. ultimately you were chosen for this mission alongside neil armstrong and buzz aldrin. you then spent time training with them, you did the mission with them, it was a feat of enormous ambition and daring and i just wonder what sort of bonds you forged with those two men? we formed some very strong forged with those two men? we formed some very strong bonds but actually not really during the flight of apollo 11 or even during the preparatory flight. it was an around

the world trip we took after the flight the world trip we took after the flight when i came to know neil better during our training. flight when i came to know neil better during ourtraining. in flight when i came to know neil better during our training. in the first place we had not been a backup crew as most primary crews had been. so we just crew as most primary crews had been. so wejust got crew as most primary crews had been. so we just got to know each other in the six months before the flight which was a short period of time. further, we were split by function. neil and buzz were primarily off doing lunar module training and i was usually by myself doing command module training. so somewhere along the line i described this as amiable strangers. i did not mean that in a derogatory way but when we were very hard—working derogatory way but when we were very ha rd—working and day derogatory way but when we were very hard—working and day was over we did not party, we did not drive colour co—ordinated for vets or any of that sort of thing. 0ur noses were to the grindstone. we had both come off the

gemini programme so we had some experience in space. the gemini programme was a fascinating so much smaller programme and it had more of a local appeal orfeeling smaller programme and it had more of a local appeal or feeling about it. almost perhaps like an athletic contest of some sort. apollo 11 on the other hand was heavy duty big business. we felt the weight of the world on our shoulders. we were being looked at and examined minutely. we were under a tight time schedule. and amiable strangers we were, ina schedule. and amiable strangers we were, in a sense. there is something intensely human about the roles you had. because armstrong and aldrin, as you said, were committed to the landing. they were in the lunar module and they would be the guys, let us be honest, who were gonna get the glory of making those footsteps

on the moon. you were integral to the mission but you were piloting the mission but you were piloting the command module. you were absolutely crucial to getting them on and off the moon and back home but you were not there and it seems to me it takes a particular kind of man to be committed to the mission and accept that you are not going to get the ultimate glory. did you see it that way? i certainly thought that i did not have the best seat of the three on apollo 11. but in all honesty i can say that i was thrilled with the seat i did have stop i knew that i had somehow lucked into being one third of the tea m lucked into being one third of the team that was going to do this wonderful thing and my function suited me fine. yeah, sure, iwould have preferred to walk on the moon but that really seemed a trivial distinction at the time. i was

pleased with my responsibilities. people have said that yours was the loneliest job that human people have said that yours was the loneliestjob that human being could ever have because while they went off, both of them together in the module to make that landing you were orbiting the moon in the command module. and for a substantial trunk of every orbit you were completely isolated from all of humankind because you were on the far side of the moon out of all contact with humanity. no human being has ever been more isolated than you were full so what? so what did you make of that experience? what impact that have upon you ? of that experience? what impact that have upon you? when i returned to earth i was amazed because most of the questions to me from the press centred on you were the loneliest man in the whole world as you orbited around the lonely planet on

a lonely evening. ifelt, on the other hand quite comfortable in my happy little home inside the command module columbia. i had been flying aeroplanes by myself for a number of yea rs aeroplanes by myself for a number of years so the fact that i was aloft by myself was not anything new. i was very comfortable. and yet there was very comfortable. and yet there was an awful responsibility on your shoulders because you were the guy who had to make sure that aldrin and armstrong got back to the spacecraft that was gonna get you all home. and you didn't know whether the lunar module would really work went left the moon ‘s surface. you did not know if armstrong and aldrin would make it back to you. ijust wonder if in your mind you had a plan for what you would do if things went wrong? you have hit upon the part of the flight that i worried about the most which was, i thought that neil

and buzz would go on down and have a successful landing and a lot of our equipment was duplicated. but when it came to their return to me they had one engine, one engine belt, one combustion chamber and that had to work perfectly to lift them back to my orbit. i had around my neck and eight x ten notebook which had in it 18 different possibilities for how we would bring those two vehicles back together. if everything went according to textbook it was fairly simple and something that we had practised over and over in a simulator stop you have to think of what it would mean for you. you have to think of what it would mean to you if you had to return to earth without them. absolutely, but only in the most abbreviated form. i was not worried that i would be coming home by myself i knew i would be a

marked man for the rest of my life. idid not marked man for the rest of my life. i did not dwell on that but i was aware of that fact. did you, as other astronauts have discussed, that experience of seeing the blue planet from earth, did that change your view of humanity, of our place in the universe? yes, i believe it did. and if there is any part of the flight did. and if there is any part of the flight of apollo 11 that sticks in my memory, it is the memory of a little tiny things that you could obscure with your thumbnail. lou and wyatt. just a trace of land, gorgeous and very shiny, bright background, totally black. i will remember that all my life. and it

leads one to consider well... is it so pretty? is it so quiet, is it so pristine? for some reason the word fragile came up out of the merc somehow. i don't know how but i thought god, it is a fragile little thing, isn't it? in the 50 years since you had that special view of our planet you think we human beings have respected and understood that fragility? no. no i don't think so. when we flew to the moon the population of the earth was about 2 billion and it is sneaking up now on eight billion and that growth is willy—nilly without any consideration for the support that additional number of people require from the resources of the earth. i don't think we ever consider that. let me ask you, if i may, a personal

question about the return to earth. perhaps you were, at that time in 1969, the three most famous men on the planet. you had achieved something that men, that mankind have dreamt about for so long and you had to live with it. and yet afterwards it cannot have been easy to handle both the adulation and the intense focus and spotlight upon you. buzz aldrin has been open about the difficulties he had in coming to terms with it. he said i have been to the moon. i had travelled around but what on earth was i going to do next? did you have a feeling like that as well? not really, i bailed out of the space programme before apollo was over. i felt that the first lunar landing had fundamentally done what john f. kennedy had asked us to do. i went on to do otherjobs, next i

was assistant secretary of state, later i was director of the national airand later i was director of the national air and space museum. let me interrupt, because both of those extremely important jobs, with interrupt, because both of those extremely importantjobs, with a great deal of responsibility, but if you had stayed, i think most people who know nasser well think there is little doubt that you could have commanded your own apollo mission, you may well have stood a chance in the years that came to have walked on the moon yourself. —— nasa. any walked away from that possibility, why? hello oh, a whole host of reasons, some of the professional, some of them personal. i think the personal one that probably weighed more heavily on me than the professional ones. -- oh. my wife pat had put up with my ridiculous career, being a jet fighter pilot, a test pilot, this loony astronaut thing, whatever it was, and that required long hours, a lot of time

away from home, and the time away from home frequently was, it was stuffed into a simulated and i was sick and tired of being stuffed into a simulator. and ifelt that sick and tired of being stuffed into a simulator. and i felt that i sick and tired of being stuffed into a simulator. and ifelt that i had upheld my end of the bargain with nasa. idid upheld my end of the bargain with nasa. i did not feel like i have nasa. i did not feel like i have nasa anything, nor did they owe me anything. but any regrets at all that you did not pursue that opportunity? sure, sure, but, you know, my luck had enjoyed and this was the time for it and and yeah, sure, but did i look back and when my good, good friend stepped out onto the lunar surface, did ifeel a sense of green envy? why did you think that could have been me?” maybe thought that but i was not green with envy or anything like

that, it was not a strong feeling, no. i made my decision, i was happy with my decision, i had a... i was now living in washington, dc with a decentjob, my wife, my family situation was good. so, i had no cause for any great regret. as you say, you, for a while, with the director of the evidence—based museum. stayed very closely tied to the world of space exploration. you have watched nasa at close quarters. do you think after the apollo programme was wound up, do you think nasa,in programme was wound up, do you think nasa, ina programme was wound up, do you think nasa, in a sense, it lost its way? the fall of the development of the space shuttle, those on this to the space shuttle, those on this to the space station, space lab, they seemed to lose momentum with the notion of pushing forward with manned exploration? do you think that they made a big mistake?” don't think nasa lost its way, so

much as nasa lost its money, and there is an important distinction there. i think nasa sort of wobbled along, they were not quite sure what you did, after apollo. —— they did a space station, an abbreviated form of one, and then they created the shuttle. i think those were important and useful steps, they we re important and useful steps, they were not as dramatic, they did not excite the american people, and interest in the space programme decreased. but i think that was perhaps inevitable after apollo was over. let's talk about mars. you have always been passionate advocate of the need for humans to push a mission to mars, but there are so many challenges involved in e—mails mission, it would take so long, at least two years. do you see a commitment, not least among america's politicians, to invest what it would need to get human

beings to mars? the financing of space ventures has changed somewhat in that it is not only a taxed government project, mars, but some private money is being thrown in by people such as elon musk. are you co mforta ble people such as elon musk. are you comfortable with that? with the notion that america's which is billionaires, and you mentioned elon musk, we could talk aboutjeff bezos as well, you comfortable with a sort of climate in space exploration where they see more committed to pushing the boundaries, the frontiers then the us government? no, well, ithink frontiers then the us government? no, well, i think the us government should welcome their money in, sure. if they want though in $1 billion here in $1 trillion here, well, bless them. i don't see that there's anything wrong with having... 0nce you ina anything wrong with having... 0nce you in a spacecraft, not shall be paid for the thing that you are up in, the fact is that you are there.

—— you are not sure. that you are adding to the possible reality of a trip to mars a little bit sooner thanif trip to mars a little bit sooner than if you relied solely on appropriated funds. isn't the truth, though, that if we are, the human species, are serious about the next phase of space exploration, which will be mindbogglingly expensive and extraordinarily technologically challenging, can only happen if there is collaboration between all of the biggest powers, that is the united states, china and russia? i think we have to find a way to co—operate. think we have to find a way to co-operate. i remember so vividly the trip that the three of us took after the flight of apollo the 11 and we were surprised that everywhere we went, every city we visited, we were not greeted with oh well, you americans finally did it, well, you americans finally did it, we we re well, you americans finally did it, we were greeted with we did it, we, humanity, we human beings have put ourselves, our talents together and we have done it. and i think that we have to build on that spirit, which

was ephemeral. but xi jinping, the president of china, not so long ago talked about china's space stream. we saw just a few talked about china's space stream. we sawjust a few months ago, the chinese with a remarkably detailed, technical achievement, putting a rover on the other side of the moon, something that had not been done before. i mean, there are people in washington, dc extremely nervous about chinese intentions in space. do you think they've got a point? well, the chinese, i think, certainly pose a problem. i think the fact that they landed on the back side of the moon is not an extraordinary technological achievement, but some of the things that they may learn there will be extraordinary. some of of the minerals, for example, that can be mined from the backside and brought back will be very, very valuable

and, andi back will be very, very valuable and, and i think... so, we in the united states, have to weigh more about china as a competitor. how we ove rco m e about china as a competitor. how we overcome that, i don't know. —— worry. i don't think we do it by increased tariffs, i think we have to somehow get the chinese and the russians, who inhabit this little, tiny, fragile little planet, tojoin with us in friendly, not hostile space ventures. and when history books are going to be written, maybe centuries from now, when we look back at the arc of human achievement, over a very long time span, where do you think landing on the moon, putting men on the moon and seeing them walk on the moon will sit in terms of milestones achieved by our species?” will sit in terms of milestones

achieved by our species? i think... two flights were very important, apollo eight and apollo 11. apollo eight, which did not land on the moon but was the first human vehicle to exceed, escape velocity, it was very important, but perhaps as important as apollo 11. apollo eight was about leaving, apollo 11 was about arriving. 100 years from now, iam not about arriving. 100 years from now, i am not sure which historians would be prevalent in an argument, whether it is more important that we left or more important that we arrived. i think both of those were monumental achievements, and they will be remembered as we proceed towards what i hope is mars, and if we can do, we can leave one and arrive in another, i think we can do the same thing. although i may contradict myself and say that i think the

first flight to mars may be intentionally a 1—way flight, so it would be leaving only and not... leaving and arriving. michael collins, i thank you very much for being on hardtalk, it has been a pleasure talking to you. thank you. thank you, stephen. bbc is my favourite. this hello there, good morning. temperatures are on a downward trend over the next few days and nights. we still managed 16 degrees in western scotland, but colder air is coming down from scandinavia,

over the north sea, so it will feel chilly for the next few days. but at least we're all going to get some sunshine, a bit like we did here in dumfries and galloway on tuesday. tuesday was still cold and grey and wet at times across southern england, and it will be southern england that sees the biggest change in the weather really, i think, for wednesday because the cloud that was sitting there, bringing some rain at times, is finally moving its way out into the english channel. still a bit of cloud, along parts of the south coast, devon, cornwall and dorset, otherwise dry. clear skies further north, the winds lighter, it will mean we're more likely to have a frost. temperatures down to —2, —3. it will warm up to a certain extent on wednesday in the sunshine, the cloud moves away from the south—west,

we'll keep one or two showers for a while in the channel islands, otherwise a dry day. a bit of fairweather cloud building up in north—east england, over the pennines. and a noticeable wind down the eastern side of england, especially in the south—east, willjust add to the chill, but at least the sunshine will be out, still only nine degrees along those north sea coasts, further west, highs of 12 or 13 celsius. those temperatures will fall away in the evening and overnight andin most parts of the country, we'll have clear skies, except for northern scotland, where there is more cloud coming in, so it won't be as cold. a frost possible for the west country by thursday morning. as we head towards the end of the week, high pressure dominating the weather, building down from scandinavia across the uk, locking all the weather fronts for the time being. so a lot of dry weather for thursday, there's cloud in northern scotland and there might be a few spots of drizzle over the hills. we're likely to find increasing cloud over central and eastern parts

of england, northern ireland, sunshine. typical temperatures still only 10 or 11 degrees. light winds on thursday, but that changes on friday. dry with some sunshine at times, more sunshine as we head into the weekend but the winds going to be strengthening. it might feel a bit cold out there, with pressure lowering out to the west, there's a chance of rain for northern ireland, and essentially high pressure still in charge and the south—easter, it should get less cold next week.